Shanna's Journal - Spoiling it for Everyone

Shanna's Journal

Shanna's Adventures in Publishing (and in life)

Spoiling it for Everyone

30th-Sep-2008 12:21 pm

I'm making real progress on the rewrites now and actually enjoying myself. Most of what I've done so far is compress events, change viewpoint characters (which has been really fun, seeing things from a different perspective) and move events to different places in the book. Today I get to the part where I move some of the plot in an entirely different direction.

I've experienced another weird case of blogosphere brain unity. I'd planned my post today around a topic for a panel I'll be moderating this weekend at Fencon on spoilers. And then on my morning blog surfing, it turned out that The Park Bench had a post on spoilers and whether or not to seek them out. So I guess today is spoiler day!

For those who don't do a lot of online discussion (Mom), a spoiler is information that gives away what happens in a book, movie or TV show. What actually constitutes a spoiler depends on who you're talking to. On one extreme are those who don't even want to know the episode titles, who don't watch the promos, who don't want to know who the guest stars or characters are and who don't even read the TV Guide episode descriptions and who consider any of that information a spoiler. On the other extreme are those who only consider it a spoiler if it gives away a major plot twist or the ending of the story. Then there's all kinds of disagreement on when something should be considered spoiler information -- how long after the book or movie is released, when the episode is shown in its country of origin, a delay after the first airing, when the episode has been shown in the United States, when the episode makes it around the world, when the series is out on DVD, etc. And does it only count if it's words that specifically tell you what happens, so pictures (as in LiveJournal icons) are okay, even if they give away a major plot twist? (The moment the season finale of Doctor Who aired in the UK, LiveJournal was swamped with icons depicting a major plot twist from that episode, and they appeared in personal journals that had nothing to do with Doctor Who, not just Doctor Who forums. And, ironically, there were even people who normally screech about people spoiling them using these extremely spoilery icons with entirely unrelated posts. So I suppose the definition of spoiler is often "something that spoils me.")

The global entertainment market and the global nature of online communication make it all more complicated. Release dates for movies and books vary around the world. The same TV series may be shown in multiple countries, but at different times, and when they are shown at different times, the really devoted can usually find them soon after the time of origin online, so not everyone in the same country even sees the same episode at the same time. Then with Tivo and other means of delayed viewing, as well as legal online availability, people may shift their viewing times to watch not when the episode originally airs, but when it's convenient. Quick release of full-series DVD sets means that some people don't even bother watching series on television and instead wait to just watch the DVDs. And then there are people who discover series years later via DVD. How far do you have to go to preserve the fresh viewing experience for people in all this?

So, just out of curiosity and to help me develop some good talking points and questions for the panel discussion, I have a few questions for all of you out there in blog land:
What's your stance on spoilers? Do you avoid all information, look at officially released information, or seek out every scrap of information you can get?

What do you consider to be a spoiler?

What issues do you run into in trying to avoid (or find) spoilers?

Any other thoughts you'd like to share on what you think proper spoiler etiquette should be?

(And feel free to direct people to this if you know they have strong feelings on the topic that they might want to share.)

Tomorrow I think I'll talk some about my own spoiler journey and personal spoiler policies.

Comments

30th-Sep-2008 05:35 pm (UTC)

aishuu

What's your stance on spoilers? Do you avoid all information, look at officially released information, or seek out every scrap of information you can get?

I don't go looking for spoilers, since I'm rather laid back about series - I don't have the need to watch everything IMMEDIATELY the way a lot of people do (it'll be there when I get to it)... that said, I sometimes feel pressure to watch a show immediately if I want to remain "Spoiler Free" (last time this happened was for Doctor Who 4 finale... I had to watch it within a couple days, because after that, people "assumed" everything had been spoiled).

What do you consider to be a spoiler?

Any information that would indicate the direction of the show. So yes, casting can be a spoiler (like James Marsters showing up on Torchwood as...). Sometimes even seeing set photos can be (like with HP movies, because that way you know a scene will be included), or hearing that something isn't going to be in the film/movie/whatever.

What issues do you run into in trying to avoid (or find) spoilers?

My flist on livejournal is horrible about spoilers, because I belong to communities... the worst one is probably Fandom Secrets. When I know something BIG is coming (like Dr Who finale, or the last HP book), I disconnect from it... and most of the web. In most cases, I don't care enough to bother, but it can be hard to avoid on the net. In RL, not so much, since my circle doesn't share the same fannish attractions I have.

Any other thoughts you'd like to share on what you think proper spoiler etiquette should be?

On livejournal, CUT CUT CUT. And don't use a spoilerish journal subject... warn when links, etc. are going to have spoilers... I think anything after a decent amount of time has passed doesn't need to be warned for, but this is a negotiable thing when it comes to time. Things that have entered pop culture (Ex: I AM YOUR FATHER) definitely aren't spoilers anymore to the majority of the population. But it's all so subjective...

30th-Sep-2008 05:42 pm (UTC)

slrose

I like spoilers.

I like to know what I'm getting into. I go to very few movies -- and those I go to I have a good idea of what happens.

And certainly spoiler tolerance helps in my job; as a librarian I read the professional review sources -- which often contain spoilers. [The point of those sources is to let people who will probably never read the book themselves decide whether the patrons they order the books for will want it. Spoilers are irrelevant.]

30th-Sep-2008 05:47 pm (UTC)

megancrewe

For the few shows I really enjoy, I try to avoid any plot information (which includes the next episode promos, episode descripts, etc.). For books and movies I just try to avoid any major spoilers about twists, the ending, that sort of thing. Casting information I don't care about so much, though I won't seek it out.

For shows, movies, and books that I'm curious about, but don't intend to watch/read (e.g., if I've heard terrible things about a movie, but would like to know what the twist at the end is), I often look up spoilers.

I consider a spoiler to be anything that gives away something about the plot or characters that a) isn't in the book or movie/show description (back of the book/movie case, that sort of thing) and b) is important (finding out so-n-so's hair is blonde, for ex, does not count ;).

My only issue with trying to avoid spoilers is that sometimes I see an LJ cut and I'm too curious and I look even though I don't really want to know ahead of time. My own worst enemy!

I definitely think any info I would consider a spoiler (see above) should be kept behind warnings, pretty much always. Even if I'm going to talk about an old book or movie I'll usually say something like "for those who haven't seen/read this and want to, you might want to stop here".

30th-Sep-2008 05:55 pm (UTC)

neonkittens143

What do you consider to be a spoiler?

Major plot twists, giving away an ending, sometimes guest stars can be spoilers, or pictures of scenes from an episode.

What issues do you run into in trying to avoid (or find) spoilers?

well, I'm someone who likes to go find spoilers because I'm not a big fan of surprises, and I don't like being out of the loop. I like knowing the gist of what is going to happen before I see it happen, that way i can prepare myself for it. Especially with reality tv show competitions (like America's Next Top Model or Project Runway), if I can't watch those right away I will go find out who was voted off/eliminated, before I watch the show, that way I can be prepared for it (and can have fun looking for the ways the producers hint that someone is going throughout the show by giving them more camera time than normal)

Any other thoughts you'd like to share on what you think proper spoiler etiquette should be?

I personally don't like it when you specifically ask someone for a spoiler (in real life, not really internet land because you can find anything you want there), and they refuse to give it to you because they think they'd be spoiling it for you, and they want you to be surprised like they were. Maybe we'd rather hear it from you than go search for it online!

otherwise, especially for livejournal, LJ CUTS! and don't use a spoiler icon in your posts for a few days after the episode airs for the first time (where ever that might be). I belong to a lot of grey's anatomy icon communities and they don't let you use previews of your icons for the first few days after airing to give everyone a chance to watch the episode and not be spoiled by the icons.

30th-Sep-2008 06:20 pm (UTC)

fairest1

I tend to actively seek out spoilers, and work to predict what's coming next (with some canons, you can figure out major plot points years in advance with a little effort). My view of what a spoiler actually is? It has to be serious information. More than just what you get out of a title or trailer. Pictures can be spoilers, but they have to actually have detailed information, not something vague that could be interpreted in a dozen different ways (or a throwaway gag -- I remember one kerfluffle over an icon that was silly and had nothing to do with the episode in question).

As for proper etiquette, a basic spoiler warning and LJ-cut suffice.

But then, I got suspended from a discussion group for two weeks because I found out that the author of a webcomic had revealed the name of a character who had appeared but not been named on the page. So opinions vary.

30th-Sep-2008 06:47 pm (UTC) - Sniff! Sniff! Does this smell spoiled to you?

bookmobiler

Since I don't own a TV or DVD and rarely watch movies I'm not sure how helpful this comment will be to you.

Spoilers rarely matter to me because I always feel the enjoyment should be in the journey. If knowing things in advance "spoils" it for you the journey wasn't very interesting any way (and by extension neither was the TV show, movie or book.)

If you are bothered by spoilers why re-read a book, watch re-runs or DVDs of a favorite movie or series? In fact spoilers can heighten your enjoyment. You want to know how did that happen and what happens next.

This is precisely why TV series and movies use teaser scenes and trailers in their advertising. It is also why many books end with a sample chapter of the author's next book.

As for me, I've been known to peek at the end of a book to find out who done it.

30th-Sep-2008 07:48 pm (UTC) - Re: Sniff! Sniff! Does this smell spoiled to you?

gategrrl

I forgot to put that in my comment, but yes. A lot of my reading and watching is in the journey. Knowing plot points (with few exceptions, like for Shamayalan's movies) really doesn't matter. You watch/read for the ritual as much for the "exciting" plot points.

30th-Sep-2008 07:42 pm (UTC)

gategrrl

Spoilers. Oh boy.

I consider a spoiler to be a)plot points that are twists like an O.Henry ending. But honestly? TV plots are rehashed over and over again and frankly, little is new under the sun and b) perHAPS a character development of the kind where there's a death.

The issues I have are with ultra-spoiler phobes. They aren't a lot of fun, especially when ultra-spoiler phobes insist on combing the internet ANYway when a penultimate episode is coming on the air. I mean, WTH are they expecting? Sure, LJ cuts. But in RL, if you haven't watched your show yet, and it's the biggest ep of a bloody season, get your butt in front of the TV and WATCH it! Take responsibility for yourself. Don't expect other fans to take care of your delicate spoiler-sensibilities, and don't blame *them* if you're spoiled to a degree you dislike.

Proper spoiler ett? I live on the West Coast of the USA, and therefore all the shows I like to watch are shown three hours later than on the East Coast. Therefore, most of my flist (on the East Coast) tends to express their opinions behind cuts.

Therefore, I avoid LJ if I want to remain spoiled, but luckily, since I've distanced myself from most shows, and I find that most "spoiler" talkers don't actually give *context* to the plot points they're talking about (it's for the In Club of those who have already seen the episode) it doesn't really matter.

What's the expiry date for spoilers? If it's a series that's been off the air for 5 years or more, baby, screw the cut. Secrets are out. The show is *done*. Like the above example, be responsible for yourself if you want to remain spoiled. If you're from another country and you haven't seen it yet, stay away from those type of threads.

30th-Sep-2008 10:38 pm (UTC)

shadrach_anki

What's your stance on spoilers? Do you avoid all information, look at officially released information, or seek out every scrap of information you can get?

It depends on the media in question and my mood at the time. I can't say that I follow any set rule on seeking out or avoiding spoilers; it varies too wildly to be consistent. When I do go looking for them, I tend to go for official information first, then fan analysis/synopsis. Of course, it has to be in a language I understand, which will preclude official releases at times.

What do you consider to be a spoiler?

I'd have to say that a spoiler is anything that ruins the sense of enjoyment and discovery in a thing. This is, of course, wildly subjective, but it's really the best definition I can come up with.

What issues do you run into in trying to avoid (or find) spoilers?

My biggest issue tends to be people who, in real life, do not have the courtesy to ask whether or not I've read/watched/heard something before launching into a detailed synopsis of it, starting with the surprise ending. Which, y'know, I wanted to be surprised by.

Online it tends to be easier to avoid (or find) what I would consider spoilers just by modifying my search patterns and reading habits.

Any other thoughts you'd like to share on what you think proper spoiler etiquette should be?

Online, use cuts and/or spoiler warnings if you're going to discuss something concerning a current show/book/series. In real life or real-time chat, ask whether or not the person you're talking to wants spoilers for something before launching into a discussion on it.

And if you're spoiler-phobic, tell people (nicely) before they start talking about something.

1st-Oct-2008 02:51 am (UTC)

eleika

Here's my random thoughts ...

On my public blog,

lstaylor, I talk about the books I've read because I'm analyzing them to see what I can learn from them about writing. I don't tend to spoil the endings with specific details, but in talking about them, I sometimes have to say "this had a happy ending" or give a general sense of "they save the world", and so on. Some books I'm a bit more specific, especially if something annoyed me, but I also take into consideration the fact that I RARELY read and review brand new books, not counting Harlequin romancess. The other books are often r

I am a bit more spoiler-ish when it comes to the Harlequins I analyze/review, because everyone knows that the couple gets together in the end, and it's just a matter of how. I often have to explain details to differentiate between the books.

I am also more willing to spoil an ending when I did not enjoy the book. Not as part of a vendetta against the author, but because I usually wind up revealing key plot points when I explain why I didn't like it.

I read the Twilight series in August, a few weeks after the last book's release. Before I even opened the book, the series ending had been spoiled for me. It was a bit annoying, but I still read the books because I'd promised a friend I would. (Which is probably what contributed to the annoyance more than anything.)

I am not afraid to look up plot summaries if I don't care about the book enough to finish it. I love to do this for movies that I never plan on watching, just so I can know what happened.

I once had a friend go off on me because I said "Hm, not bad" about the last Harry Potter book. I put everything else behind a LJ cut, but she was still mad at me because, as she put it, those who knew me knew that if I said that about the book, it meant that Harry lived. And the post office screwed up her order so she was delayed in getting the book, and angry when she read those three words. I disagree with that. I think I'm mature enough that I could very well have said the same thing about the book if the opposite had happened.

We're watching Iron Man on Friday for the first time since we saw it in theatres. Two people watching it with us are seeing it for the first time, and both have been very insistent that we make no spoiler comments during the movie. We're pretty good about that, though, so I don't forsee any problems.

I don't go out of my way to avoid spoilers, but I try not to think about a book or movie before it's released. (E.g. I don't like re-watching trailers too many times, and if an author posts a teaser-snippet, I don't read it.) This is because if I think about it, then I want to watch/read it NOW. But not because I'm so worried about it being spoiled.

And now that I think about it, spoilers don't bother me much. Maybe it's my writer's brain, but if I do come across a spoiler, instead I spend part of the time trying to guess how the plot gets from A to B. Since I already do that with books and movies anyway, I view it more as a challenge than a frustration. I like trying to guess what's going to happen. I figure it helps me get to know plot structure, and I'm impressed when my expectations are met in a non-predictable way. (My husband, who also has writer's brain, feels the same.) I kind of creeped out my friends when I guessed, word-for-word, what a character was going to say on Heroes last night.

1st-Oct-2008 03:11 am (UTC)

eleika

Hmm, guess I didn't answer two of the questions:

What do you consider to be a spoiler?
I have to agree with the poster above: anything that ruins my enjoyment of the book. But as I said, I try to take it as a challenge and not *let* it affect my enjoyment.

Any other thoughts you'd like to share on what you think proper spoiler etiquette should be?
I don't think there CAN be proper spoiler etiquitte. Not in this day and age. Well, except for "Don't spoil it within the first few weeks of its release". You could be riding on the bus and have the plot spoiled for you; that's what happened to me with Juno.

But you can't tell people to not talk about books and movies they enjoyed, be it online, on the bus, or anywhere. You'd have to hide in a cave to have it completely unspoiled, and you'd have to expect that of everyone else. I didn't see Star Wars until I was nineteen. How could I go that long and expect not to hear all the "Luke, I am your father!" jokes? I grew up with Star Wars references so I knew half the plot. I still enjoyed the trilogy (er, Episodes 4-6) when I finally got to watch it.

Edited at 2008-10-01 03:11 am (UTC)

1st-Oct-2008 08:54 pm (UTC)

danamongden

What's my stance on spoilers? Heh... I'm doing a cut-n-paste from a rant I made just before the release of the final Harry Potter book.

--
Spoilers are pure evil. There's no getting around it.

You see, I'm a writer... an author... whatever. I am a story teller. I have great respect for other story tellers, and one of the things I've learned in all these stories is that each person gets to hear the story for the first time only once. They get one shot at it. Only once do their emotions get the full ride. Only once do they nurture hope against all odds. Only once do they feel that utter despair. Only once do they find joy. For ever after, it is merely a retelling.

When you tell them something about the story ahead of time, you rob them of that experience. They'll never get it back. Nothing you do can repair it.

So don't.
--

What do I consider to be a spoiler? Anything that reveals anything about an event or character in the story. Pretty much anything beyond "I loved/hated it" is a spoiler at some level.

One of the biggest issues I run into in spoilers is someone who reveals a spoiler thinking it's not one. "Well, I thought it was obvious when it happened, so there's no surprise." Well, maybe it was obvious for you in that moment, but it sure isn't obvious for me right now when I haven't gotten to that point yet.

As for spoiler etiquette, I use lots of cuts when writing online, and in coversation, I always try to find out if the listener has seen/read the work in question. Then I say as little as I can, usually only encouraging them to experience it themselves.

But yeah, spoilers are evil.

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